Music Venues: Return of the Drama Llama
“The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There’s also a negative side.” ~ Hunter S. Thompson
Every so often, old ideas get bandied about the SL live music community in the guise of new ideas. Cover charges is the one currently making the rounds…again.
The ugly truth is that cover charges will never work because (a) the product isn’t worth it to the majority of the SL population, (b) it goes against the performer’s best interests, (c) there’s no way to secure streams, and (d) most SL venues shouldn’t be supported.
I have issues with people who whine about SL venues needing funds. The begging and flogging for “tips” that goes on to “support” music venues and clubs in SL walks the line of repulsing me. During concerts at my venue, I spam occasional room gestures to tip the performers, and I do that no more than 3 times per hour. I never ask for tips for the venue, although I do thank people when they do tip. This is my choice and certainly my music venue is no longer much more than a small gathering place where we have concerts once a week when we’re in the mood.
The claim that having a music venue means you are supporting the SL music scene is, with a few exceptions, complete bunk. Having a music venue is, largely, an act of vanity. Everyone wants to be king/queen of their particular hill. Some do so as a patron/patroness of the arts, as I’ve always tried to be. Others seem to feel it’s the responsibility of the community to finance their vanity projects. These latter types are generally cast from the cloth of those who buy their gall in the economy-sized value bags so they never run out.
If you are going to have a venue in SL, then it should be able to support itself without shamelessly begging and passive-aggressively assaulting guests. In the past, people supported venues by considering them an advertising expense for a commercial area and a means to improve search rank. When my shops were highly ranked in search and generating income, I paid L$3000 – L$5000 per performer hour back when that was unheard of. Ever since the restructuring of search rank, venues have been scrambling for a new model, as well they should. Innovation is part of longevity. Sadly, there is no prerequisite for owning an SL venue. You don’t have to have an IQ above a gnat’s, nor is there any particular requirement to have business or building savvy. In the real world, you have to have connections, investors, a plan; in SL all you need is a parcel.
The vast majority of SL live music venues should close. Most of them are tacky, unimaginative, lag-infested builds that have no standards or character and their owners do nothing more than post an event and, sometimes, pay a performer. There are exceptions, but the truth is that 90% of the venues in SL have no right to ask for tips, let alone to think about imposing a cover charge. This fact brings us to the next unhappy truth about SL live music, which is that 90% of the performers have no business charging people to listen to them play. There are good performers in SL, but they are a small minority. The third inescapable truth is that the listening audience rarely knows the difference.
So, let’s add this all up. You have a majority of people who have no business owning venues, combined with a majority of people who have no business performing, divided among a listening audience that really doesn’t know the difference. The math isn’t pretty and if that’s all their was to it, live music in SL would be nothing more than the shameful red-headed-step-child so many think it to be. However, it should be compared against the real world social math to treat it fairly.
Music performed in public is largely a social thing. In physical reality, bar bands aren’t necessarily worth paying to hear. They’re hired to keep people dancing, thirsty, and buying booze/coffee. Most of the people in the bar don’t care how good or bad the band is, as long as they’re in that tolerable range so they can dance and have a good time. In SL, the social aspect is the same. Audience members rarely distinguish the mediocre talent from the quality performers. They want to hear mostly familiar songs, hang out with friends, and enjoy themselves. The venue owner’s end is different; there’s no consumable to compensate for the coffee, booze and hot wings that make money. Trying to squeeze the audience members or undercut the performers isn’t an option. It’s in-fighting among a small population and you can’t keep expecting the same stones to bleed fresh funds.
New money has to come from outside the sphere. The obvious answer is to look toward places that are making money in SL — businesses that have a reason to keep their names out there in the community. Most venues, however, do not have the population to draw the interest of advertisers by themselves.
My Two Cents Solution
I’ve had an idea for a while that I’ve reached after long conversations and bouncing off others. It would require someone with advanced scripting skills to be willing to create a system for the live music community. This individual would also be required to have and maintain a good reputation as well as demonstrated ethics. There just aren’t enough people in the SL live music community I care to help to take on a project of this nature, but if there’s anyone out there that thinks they can make it sail, here’s my two cents on how to do it.
The Venue Display
The display would be the user-end part of the system; a non-transfer item that any venue owner could get for a set price, presumably from a central location or XStreet. It should be offered at a nominal “start up” fee (L$1000 or so) to cover coding and update expenses and discourage freebie idiots. The item itself would be a tastefully presented “billboard” that would flash a new advertisement every two minutes (or an optimized amount of time to allow the majority of concert goers to rez) and provide a basis of X impressions per hour at every venue that features a display. Each place in the rotation would include the visual image (512 x 256 or some other standard png) and a means for people to get LMs/SLURLs and/or to join groups.
The venue owner would incorporate the display into their build, making sure it’s placed in a prime location to be exposed to the most traffic. The display would gather data from the location for a period of 10 days in a “gathering” mode, and assign the location a rank based on the number of unique avatars that come within an established visual range of the display. After the 10-day gathering mode, the display would be activated, continuing to gather traffic data for the venue’s ongoing participation in the project, but once activated the venue becomes eligible for payouts.
Ad-End Boxes
Advertisers would be sought for the signs by venue owners and interested parties. Anyone wooing an advertiser would give them a box, similar to an XStreet “magic box” and a rental box. The advertiser would rez the box and put in their ad (or possibly the UUID of their ad image), LM/SLURL, and any other necessary items for the display. This could possibly be controlled via notecard.
The boxes would need to somehow be coded by the venue owner or interested party so that the “salesperson” avatar earns a commission of, say, 10%, thus providing incentives to those persons who secure advertisers. If no commission code is input, the full amount goes to the venue pool.
The advertiser would pay L$X to have one spot in the display rotation, although there would be nothing prohibiting them from having multiple boxes and paying for multiple rotation placement. Payment could be made to the boxes, similar to the way rental boxes work.
Payout
All payments (except for the cost of the displays, which would go to the administrative party) would somehow be collected into a pool. This pool would then payout each month. First, commissions would be paid out appropriately to those who sold and cultivated advertising. Then payout would go to venue owners that own the displays on a sliding scale determined by the venue’s location rank. There would be a minimum required rank for any payout to discourage gaming the system and to weed out lesser productive venues.
Considerations
1. Holding onto money is tricky and icky. It would likely require a dummy avatar and/or web-based system and there would have to be some assurance for that sytem to be un-hackable. There may also have to be a minimal percentage devoted to the upkeep of such a system which would be taken out prior to the commission and venue pay outs.
2. To prevent venues from double-dipping on their traffic, the displays would have to be coded to deactivate if they are placed within X distance of each other.
3. Since it would be traffic-based, there will be the customary methods to game the system (bots/drones/camping chairs) by people that have nothing to do with live music. As such, the community would need access to the list of most successful venues so that locations could be self-checked by the community itself. A process would need to be established for deactivating a location based on enough user complaints. The requirement would need to be high enough to discourage people from trying to deactivate legitimate locations as a means of retribution or griefing. Displays would need to indicate whether they were active, deactivated, or in gathering mode so that venue owners could troubleshoot effectively.
4. Transparency would be of paramount importance and a boon, providing population statics that could benefit both the live music and general SL business communities. As such, they should be made available to the public on a regular basis. This will also provide incentive for competition within the community and give potential advertisers something to reinforce their investment.
5. There would have to be protocols set forth for instances where fraud/mistakes occur or where prices need to be changed for whatever reason. These should also be handed with the utmost transparency to the community.
Example:
Let’s say:
A. 100 advertisers pay L$5000 a month for a place in the display rotations;
B. 50 venues host displays and of those 30 meet the minimum traffic requirements for a paid ranking;
Total monthly income from advertising: L$500,000
Total monthly commissions paid: L$50,000
Remainder split between 30 competing venues: L$450,000 (an average of L$15,000 per venue)
Presumably, the commissions would also be earned by venue owners, giving them incentive to do more than just sit around and play queen for the day to support their establishments.
Anticipated Positive Results
Venue owners become active participants in the business of SL live music.
Venues have more income to hire more artists and/or pay crowd-friendly performers higher fees.
Venues have a reason to compete and create more crowd-friendly atmospheres; competition almost always benefits a community.
SL businesses work within the community to establish a new multi-location advertising outlet that occurs in world where people play and shop instead of on websites only a fraction of the community visits.
SL live music gets out of the ghetto, stops begging, and grows up.
Unintended Consequences
Always a concern. If I could foresee them, they’d be considerations and not unintended consequences.
For what it’s worth, I can only think of one person I’d trust to handle this project who has the integrity and the coding stones. Okay, actually, I can think of two, but I like them too much. I wouldn’t wish this undertaking on anyone I cared about, largely because I don’t think the majority of the live music community has it within itself to appreciate anything done for it.
You had me nodding and smiling… and then you had to go and mention advertising.
I certainly appreciate the attempt to think of viable alternatives, but we need innovation, not billboard spam business models with no/low roi and a bad aftertaste.
I still cringe over memories of ustream ninjams with noma and hathead…those colon ads really didn’t work.
I’ve also done a number of advertising funded experiments in SL (and still do) with both RL and SL brands and II can say the success rate is about 5%.
Any advertising based music business model has to be highly tuned to ensure there is a tight synergy between performer, locatiuon and audience demo/psycho.
Onwards and Upwards!
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 9, 2009 at 3:04 AMkt
Komuso, as you and I both know, any outline would have to allow room for a sophisticated evolution to address future population adjustments. Which is why I believing building-in population gathering would be essential to anything of this nature.
Do not mistake me, I don’t see this project ever happening, it’s merely an example of the direction things need to point toward instead of the constant backward mentality that cycles through blogs and message boards every few months.
I appreciate that you feel advertising is a dirty word, but, if done properly, it is not. In fact, a display like the one I propose would be as commonplace as large-screen displays at sporting events. The reason your mind jumps to billboard spam is because we’ve all seen what most people do with their builds and people like you and I have no faith in the ability of those same types to integrate with any creativity or taste.
Like it or not, if money is the issue, it has to come from those who are making the money and, though the art world and the financial world are always thumbing their noses at one another, they are married to a certain degree. Advertising will only work if enough people see the advertising to make the investment viable for advertisers. No singe venue or artist can offer that with the current live music community population.
One of the frustrations of SL business owners these days is the dismal options available for advertising their products and services. That’s an opportunity that shouldn’t be ignored.
As for hitting on the sweet spot for synergy between performers, venues, audiences, and advertisers, we both know the level of sophistication simply isn’t there yet in either the tools or the participants to make that happen. It’s like wishing for Lego castles when all you have to build with are clunky duplos. We play the hands we’re dealt, not the ones we wish we had. My proposal addresses what the community has to work with currently, not what I wish was there. And, even still, I think it’s above the abilities of the community as a whole.
Commented by Salome on September 9, 2009 at 3:37 AMSalome,
“Which is why I believing building-in population gathering would be essential to anything of this nature.”
Yes.
“I appreciate that you feel advertising is a dirty word, but, if done properly,”
No, my opinion comes from experience in SL with different advert models (incl billboard systems such as your idea – and other peopple in SL are still working on this model for music btw) and following RL music based advertising plays.
General Advertising funded free music plays are proving to be failures across the board in RL.
If any model works it’s the ones that are low subscription models to get access to the advertising Free product or service.
Even these are now having issues with artists due to the abysmally low royalty’s being paid.
What I am saying is that the model that will work FOR MUSIC needs to tightly integrated and has to have synergies to work.
I think it’s possible to experiment with these under current SL technology if you put some thought into it.
But that brings us back to point one…a viable enough market size willing to buy said advertised products and services to generate sustainable revenues to achieve at least break even.
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 9, 2009 at 4:03 AMI haven’t seen any real advertising effort made in an across-the-community way that engaged the number of venues needed to give anything a legitimate go. Like you, I’ve seen people claim to make an effort at display advertising systems (and others may well still be working on them) but they’ve all been done badly and without community outreach. I’ve seen single artists and venues (or a rag-tag handful at a time) make largely unprofessional efforts. The reason for this is twofold: often those with enthusiasm lack skills, and those with skills too frequently get tangled up in their egos. As in so often the case in our little playground, vanity experiments get a lot of word of mouth, but that doesn’t make them legitimately explored business models. The examples I’ve seen lacked planning, scope, execution, and/or community appeal. Please feel free to provide me examples of where you think anyone has approached this or any advertising model well enough to take it off the table.
There are two things I know in SL: music and shopping. I tell you the crossover is there to be applied. Women go to concerts. Women look at what other women wear. If I were a clothing/hair/skin designer,wanting to get my brand out there, I would be hiring a few cute avatars to go to concerts and model my stuff.
The disappointing truth behind why nothing works is because the community is not one hive, but a collection of factions or clans, all of whom have largely different objectives as well as vast differences in standards.
The people I know personally who have the skills and imagination to actually get things done on this front face crippling challenges not because of their own limitations but because the live music community in SL does nothing to encourage or motivate a business or individual to invest time, energy, or funds to improve it. It’s my guess that’s as true for Linden Lab as it is for the rest of us.
Instead, the SL music community has demonstrated, repeatedly, a lack of sophistication, a lack of appreciation, and a staggering ignorance of their own best interest. As long as mediocrity is championed and presented as the norm, there is no reason for anyone to do anything that serves more than their own immediate interest.
I appreciate that “tightly integrated” and “synergies” are fun buzz words to toss back and forth, but they both mean the same fundamental thing: cooperation. In order for a plan to get deployed to the music community at large, someone will have to work around the general dysfunction of the established factions and bypass the lowest common denominators. These are key hurdles to implementation, and advertising models (including my proposal) will have to allow for tweaking of integration and synergy based on demographic information. But that information has to be gathered first. My primitive model has a twofold and long-term purpose. Even if the advertising fails (and I agree it just might, even if approached correctly), the data gathered will benefit the community.
We can (and I will happily) go round and round about theoretical business models, but the reality of the situation is that the community doesn’t appear to exist that will support a real business model of any kind. This, in turn, makes it challenging to encourage new people to come and improve the community. It’s a self-defeating cycle and most of the good people I know are frustrated about being mired in it.
I really do hope someone paints themselves out of the corner and breaks the thing wide open. And when they do, I hope they’re appreciated for it. Until then, the best I can offer is a truthful view of where we are and what needs to be faced to do anything real about the problem. We certainly won’t get anywhere by pretending the challenges don’t exist.
Commented by Salome on September 9, 2009 at 6:34 AM“I appreciate that “tightly integrated” and “synergies” are fun buzz words to toss back and forth, but they both mean the same fundamental thing: cooperation.”
It goes far beyond a simplistic brand attachment concept such as “cooperation”. Denigrate the “buzzwords” all you like, but you appear to fail to understand the true meaning.
The whole concept of a single “community” to be willingly hitched up to the virtual widget sales gravy train to pump product to a consumer friendly music audience is another bad meme floated around by people that 1. do not understand the new music paradigm evolving in RL, of which VW’s will play a key part and 2. Do not grasp the essential nature of the direct 2 fan artist relationship under this new paradigm. http://phasinggrace.blogspot.com/2009/08/second-life-meet-social-web.html and associated comments illustrate a little of some of the deeper issues here.
Maybe you should hitch your wagon to Mankind’s “Radio Friendly Music” initiative.
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 9, 2009 at 8:59 AMIt may be more the shopping channel marketspace you are looking for;-)
++
El Jefe Crapo de Mariner is starting to understand this:
“But if performers do more shows on their own land that don’t pressure people into tipping, announced to their group or subscribe-o-matics to true fans, only the venues with strong relationships with the performers, diversified holdings (malls/rentals/services/products/partnerships), and community followings will ultimately survive, bouncerbots or not.”
http://firstlife.isfullofcrap.com/2009/09/performerrun_venues.html#comments
say-o-nara!
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 9, 2009 at 9:03 AMkt
… The whole concept of a single “community”
Is bunk.
It’s cliques. It’s factions. it’s circles. It’s a hill of messed-up martyrs screaming from their crosses. It’s a bunch of copies of that damn coffeehouse from Friends, or perhaps that Central Perk from Frasier, mixed with wandering tribes of fans flowing from one gig to the next going “Aw, crap… not that PHOEBE chick!” and running off to the next barista bunker.
It’s a Zooby dog eat Zooby dog grid.
(If only it were Zooby baby eat Zooby baby. That would be so WICKED cool!)
-ls/cm
Commented by Crap Mariner on September 9, 2009 at 9:52 AMThe only “dog eat dog” element of SL live music are the promotion whores. Most everyone else is either too disgusted to care or simply clueless. A handful are just happily bobbing around doing their own thing.
But, yes, Crap, I believe I covered that point in both my post and my follow-up comments.
Commented by Salome on September 9, 2009 at 4:41 PMNobody’s stopping you from starting a series of Branded Drama Llama venues to get the ball rolling on your well dressed music munchkin version. *woof woof*;-)
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 9, 2009 at 8:00 PMKomuso, I appreciate that you feel you invented a lot of this and other ways of thinking, but there are many of us out there who understand the true meaning of what’s going on, the hurtles in our way, and how the fractured state of what calls itself a community lends to the crux of the problem. My post and my follow up comments have all pointed this out, so that you choose to write as though I’m passing around some bad Kool-Aid meme of let’s all hold hands and work together is a bit disingenuous. I do not and never have had any interest in Mankind’s efforts. It’s clear the direction he’s working in and it’s clear that it goes against any logical path for the future of SL music. I’m going to sidestep your “shopping channel marketspace” blurb because what I’d like to reply regarding that comment moves this conversation off a civil path. The same with your final comment which, I confess, doesn’t even make sense to me.
Any plan that works will have to succeed in spite or and/or around the edges of the community as a whole, and/or will have to be headed by people who can bridge the gaps and make people work together for a common interest despite the different agendas being pushed. The reason you cannot provide me examples of anyone doing either of these is because it’s never happened. You can say “we’ve tried that” all you like, but no one has tried it well. There is a possibility that an individual will be able to develop something on their own, but it seems unlikely given the current population. No single performer or venue can offer what needs to be offered to make advertisers take note beyond a patron role.
SL music’s only commodity is traffic, and while that traffic has grown significantly over the years, it has also fractured and dispersed and has many different characters. Take someone like Maximillion Kleene. A sweet kid who has improved a lot since becoming an SL performer. He regularly fills venues with his fans. That traffic doesn’t translate to any meaningful tips for a venue, however, because his fans are mostly girls trying to get his attention and they have no interest in supporting the venue. Such a group is meaningless to a venue owner looking for tips, but a great target audience for advertisers. Why? Because women shop. We all do. Even the boys pretending to be girls shop.
One part of the new music paradigm you refer to is that free music is often offered by host sites that make their money via advertising based on their traffic. In a metaverse where nothing can really be held to a premium because almost everything can be produced infinitely, traffic is still the key. Advertising based on that traffic is the most basic part of that. Trying to come up with a system that addresses as much traffic as possible with a sliding scale that rewards those contributing the most is simply a common sense starting point while waiting for others to reinvent the wheel. Yes, we have to stop trying to embrace traditional marketing in all the lazy traditional ways, but that doesn’t mean some basic concepts can’t be addressed well and still applied.
Grace is an excellent representation of people who think outside the box and that’s why her voice is invaluable to anyone trying to navigate their way through all this. She would be the first to tell you that no one in SL music has ever made a professional legitimate attempt to employ a functioning business model on the live music community.
Commented by Salome on September 9, 2009 at 8:26 PMYour vision, btw, is pretty much what the vside controlled marketing experience virtual world is built around.
Let me reiterate what I keep saying in a number of postings in response to this issue.
Unrealistic Expectations among most players (“vanity venues”, venues, musicians, etc) abound on this.
Unrealistic expectations of an evolving technology platform (and the company providing it).
Unrealistic expectations of what are experimental business models.
Unrealistic expectations of the audience.market.
Unrealistic expectations of the [insert here]
This is still very early days, and what we are witnessing is evolution and adaption in action.
Experiment, innovate, test, try ideas, THAT is what is important.
Just remember it’s new rules for new times, and the new music universal constant is the artist’s Direct 2 Fan relationship is key.
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 9, 2009 at 8:29 PMKomuso, I’m not sure if you misunderstand me, or if you choose to misunderstand so that you have a base to argue against, but we basically agree that (1) this problem is not solvable at the current time and (2) most of the things people are trying to preserve do not deserve to be preserved. Neither of us believe the people, the market, or the tools exist to make SL live music a viable market contender.
My proposal was not intended to solve the problem of putting SL music onto a more mainstream map, but merely to illustrate that if venue owners were serious about being business owners, a coordinated effort like the one I propose is what they should be working toward with the tools and population that exist. That they choose not to take a serious business approach and instead fall back on the idea of wanna-be ticketmasters illustrates why they need to be thinned out.
Once again, the money — if it is to be earned at all — cannot come (with any significance) from within the live music sphere. Thus, it has to come from those in SL who are turning a profit. The lack of advertising opportunities in SL make advertising the best exploit for a venture at this time. There is crossover in the shopping and live music activities. That untapped opportunity exists from a general laziness and lack of professionalism. It’s not pretty, but it’s the truth.
My original post clearly states I don’t think the community or people exist to get anything working. It was open brainstorming to illustrate a practical method that hasn’t been approached with any seriousness.
Unrealistic is a good word to describe SL live music, but the main reason for those unrealistic expectations is the lack of sophistication that prevails in all corners of the current population. When a collection of hobbyists convince themselves that they’re professionals and demand irrational things all you can really do is wait for them to blow themselves out and show them examples of what they should have been doing if they wanted to be taken seriously.
Commented by Salome on September 9, 2009 at 9:12 PMKomuso, I appreciate that you feel you invented a lot of this and other ways of thinking, but there are many of us out there who understand the true meaning of what’s going on, the hurtles in our way, and how the fractured state of what calls itself a community lends to the crux of the problem.
Your “poor little musician does not understand how the adults do business” is more than a little patronizing.
I detected this in your earlier posts actually, hence my shopping channel digs;-) Action/Reaction.
As I stated before on prads thread “I have been there from the beginning of the SL music scene as a live performer, using it as a action research experiment in personal branding and new business model experimentation for this emerging performance medium.”
However, I do actually have an RL background in addition to music, and I am involved in researching VW’s for business/educational use and fully understand the issues for micro, small, sme, and enterprise business.
I fully understand your perspective and the issues involved.
And sometimes it’s actually better to do nothing and wait for certain things to evolve.
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 9, 2009 at 9:17 PM***Your “poor little musician does not understand how the adults do business” is more than a little patronizing.***
It is patronizing. It was also not so much addressed toward you as the majority of performers in SL in general who, let’s face it, need patronizing. Your shopping channel digs may seem like action/reaction to you, but since I do not champion those causes they’re, at best, misplaced. Please don’t misunderstand, I don’t have an aversion to commerce, I have an aversion to tacky. Advertising, if done well, is a skill and an art. Too many people in the traditional arts (music, film, visuals, writing) discard the art of business (advertising, coding, etc) and I don’t fall into step with the “all advertising is bad” or “anything mainstream is evil” memes. If, however, you felt I was glossing over your credentials, that was not my intention. I was merely pointing out that despite your claims, no one, including yourself, has tried a sweeping effort like the one I was illustrating to the best of my knowledge — which is why I asked you for examples if you felt I was incorrect.
***As I stated before on prads thread “I have been there from the beginning of the SL music scene as a live performer, using it as a action research experiment in personal branding and new business model experimentation for this emerging performance medium.”***
I’ve been here since the start of the SL music scene, also. I’ve watched what most people have done. Again, I haven’t seen anyone coordinate a serious effort to marry a significant advertising model to SL live music traffic. That individuals, like yourself, have made efforts to establish their own brand, I do not argue. That people (including myself and my friends) have experimented with small-scale business models, I don’t argue.
***However, I do actually have an RL background in addition to music, and I am involved in researching VW’s for business/educational use and fully understand the issues for micro, small, sme, and enterprise business.
I fully understand your perspective and the issues involved. ***
Faboo. I never for a moment thought you didn’t understand me. I merely assumed you disagreed.
***And sometimes it’s actually better to do nothing and wait for certain things to evolve.***
Agreed. Which is why I’ve taken that road for quite some time now. I don’t think it prohibits me from pointing out to others the types of efforts they should be making in the current environment if they had any real desire of being taken seriously.
Commented by Salome on September 9, 2009 at 9:41 PM“The same with your final comment which, I confess, doesn’t even make sense to me.”
Part of the problem with the SL “scenes” is far too many people take themselves far to seriously.
Especially so with a platform climbing the technology and adoption curve.
Nobody’s stopping you from starting a series of Branded Drama Llama venues to get the ball rolling on your well dressed music munchkin version. = do something beyond what you already have been to try and prove your concept
*woof woof* = attempt at humour on the dog eat dog nature of a competitive market
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 9, 2009 at 9:43 PMAs for examples, yes there are some especially in relation to coordinated in venue advertising.
A serious effort was recently made to test this and gather some metrics and run under the radar, but I’m afraid it’s not my place to say more, for a number of reasons.
In the past there have also been a number of attempts to implement highly customizable billboard advertising with avatar tracking metrics.
I tested these. Fail for a number of reasons. Concept *may* work, but as stated previously I believe we are no longer in a shotgun marketing paradigm and any advertising needs to be targeted and tracked to be effective. And well done.
There are also a number of Virtual World music plays built specifically around the controlled marketing experience. Obviously mainstream music ie: Boxed product music, target at very specific demo.psycho’s with very specific brands/products for said markets.
I am also not averse to commerce or advertising. I am extremely averse, however, to bad commerce and bad advertising both of which are dominant in rl and sl.
In closing: Just remember it’s new rules for new times, and the new music universal constant is the artist’s Direct 2 Fan relationship is key.
)
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 9, 2009 at 9:52 PMoh, and there’s this “professional” attempt.
http://musicnotpoliticsmarketing.com/The_Right_Plan_For_You.html
As I said, Unrealistic Expectations, and any marketer should be asking for some serious ROIballs proof.
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 9, 2009 at 10:11 PM***Nobody’s stopping you from starting a series of Branded Drama Llama venues to get the ball rolling on your well dressed music munchkin version. = do something beyond what you already have been to try and prove your concept.***
Whom would I be trying to prove it to? I have neither the need nor the want to prove anything to anyone. If I had any real desire to do something with the live music community, trust me, no one would stop me. I have no desire ATM beyond enjoying my friends. I’m also not one of the people crying about not making money, begging for venue tips, or trying to squeeze and blame performers, so woofing at me is a little silly.
My business ventures in SL are my own stores as well as Shopping and Fashion Blogging where I was, forgive me for saying, in the top tier of the market, if not the peak. I don’t have any desire to be part of that current community, either. So I’m in a wait-and-see position on both. That doesn’t invalidate insight or ideas, it simply means I don’t wish to employ them because I don’t feel the payoff will be worth it.
Obviously.
Your link is one artist which has nothing to do with the type of group effort I’ve been explaining that would reach a broader base of the live music community beyond a single or handful of performers/venues. Your other examples are things you can’t talk about and things that “*may* work in controlled marketing” that you can’t point to with specifics beyond saying you did them. Sorry, even though I’m not from Missouri, I do need more than that if you’re trying to convince me a traditional model has been applied in a professional manner with enough scope to apply it to a large enough listener base.
***I am extremely averse, however, to bad commerce and bad advertising both of which are dominant in rl and sl.***
Um. Yeah. Which is something neither of us are championing.
***In closing: Just remember it’s new rules for new times, and the new music universal constant is the artist’s Direct 2 Fan relationship is key.***
New rules for new times and embracing new methods does not mean the market stops existing in its current form. Your answer to people trying to deal with the existing tools and population is “do nothing.” My answer is “I’m not going to do anything, but if I were, it would be this.”
As for “key,” obviously the relationship between artist/product and fan/consumer is important, but that’s like saying “just remember we need bees to pollinate the world’s flora.” Branding has always known it needed to pet its followers — which is why there have been fanclubs for actors and musicians since performing was invented. “Direct 2 Fan” relationship is a modern was of saying “know your groupies.” It’s really not as new as you seem to think.
Commented by Salome on September 9, 2009 at 10:11 PM“It’s really not as new as you seem to think.”
It is and it isn’t.
It is the “It Is” part that is redefining the RL music industry. Not without it’s own unique it has to be said, which people are starting to discover.
It is much more than what you think it is, but I think I’ll just agree to disagree with you on that and let the future prove itself.
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 9, 2009 at 10:19 PM***It is the “It Is” part that is redefining the RL music industry.***
Micropayments, file sharing, and too many other things to name have redefined and are constantly refocusing the RL music industry. That copyright law is being held hostage amid this evolution isn’t helping anything. That said, a market in flux is still a market and those people in business will have to use the tools and means at their disposal if they want to stay in business. Others will simply sit back and wait for the reshuffle while innovators do their thing. The technology changes, the customs evolve, but the game is largely still the same.
***Not without it’s own unique it has to be said, which people are starting to discover.***
Either you’re missing a word here, or I’m not understanding this.
***It is much more than what you think it is, but I think I’ll just agree to disagree with you on that and let the future prove itself.***
Setting aside your apparent belief that you can read my mind, I’m content to agree to disagree as well.
Commented by Salome on September 9, 2009 at 10:31 PM-> Unique Challenges
“Setting aside your apparent belief that you can read my mind,”
You said it yourself -> “Direct 2 Fan” relationship is a modern was of saying “know your groupies”
It is more than that. Is that what businesses call their customers? groupies…
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 9, 2009 at 10:41 PM[and just to clarify I when I am purely speaking about musicians that have "it", the ability to 1. play 2. perform 3. connect , not just bash an instrument and have an attitude]
ack..mistak!
->When I am speaking about musicians I am referring to musicians that have “it”, the ability to 1. play exceptionally 2. perform exceptionally 3. connect with an audience real or virtual – whatever the genre or niche appeal of their style may be. These are the minority.
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 9, 2009 at 10:47 PMHere’s an alternative view on the relationship between music and advertising/marketing from Bob Lefsetz
http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2009/09/09/jobs-hits-the-stage/
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 9, 2009 at 11:03 PM-> Unique Challenges
Ah yes, that makes sense now. Thank you.
You said it yourself -> “Direct 2 Fan” relationship is a modern was of saying “know your groupies”
Simpler language does not imply a lack of modern concepts any more than modern language implies a grasp of them.
Knowing your fans and how to market to them, connect with them, etc is what Direct 2 Fan means. That it’s a term coined during an evolution which embraces the next level doesn’t make the underlying concepts unique, it just means it’s the lingo for the time. My language is throwback in nature, yours is not, but most of the concepts are the same. Someone could say “combat stress reaction” all they like, but it will still translate to “shellshock” for someone like me. Because I use a more traditional vernacular doesn’t mean my concepts are stuck in time, it just means that when I communicate, I prefer to use terms that the majority of those reading will relate to; I’m not assuming to communicate with only those who have updated their vocab to the newest buzz. I’m not knocking that your prefer terms of the now — I just knock that you think they mean something completely different.
The Lefsetz piece is good, his writing is punchy and fun, but being in awe of Apple and Jobs marketing and innovation is as old as Mac vs PC flame wars on Usenet. Jobs has taken many of the big steps in the modern revolution of music. But a lot of his techniques are based on using simple, traditional concepts and applying them really well to his base. No one knows their groupies better than Jobs. He gathered devoted armies where Gates gathered reluctant followers of fear and loathing. Both of them are simply employing two different models that any number of mafia bosses could explain in exactly the same way, if completely different language. The language and the technology changes, but the games and agendas largely remain the same. Just because someone understands and acknowledges that human truth, however, doesn’t mean you should presume that they do not make allowance for the X factors that always come with progress. It just means they’ve read enough science fiction to know they can’t presume to know what the details of the next steps will be.
Commented by Salome on September 9, 2009 at 11:35 PMYou completely missed my point, and your consistent reference to groupies as the catch all phrase for customers indicates that.
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 10, 2009 at 12:14 AMConcepts that communicate across generational mental models are good to use, but I’m afraid tagging the modern customer as a groupie is simplistic and misleading.
ROFL. When it comes to which of us is missing the point and which of us is using their language to be simplistic and misleading, I’m afraid we’re going to have to once again agree to disagree. Reading what you’ve posted here and in other places, the bulk of what I see is marketing double talk and links to articles that have vague connection to the topic at hand, but very little meat and certainly no evidence for the claims you’ve made of “I’ve done this” or “it’s been done before.” They may exist, but if you’re trying to convince me or anyone, you’ve certainly not supported the argument you put forth.
As for the future, “wait and see” is a comfortable position because it risks nothing and can’t be proven wrong. There’s nothing wrong with not throwing your hat into the ring, I’m currently keeping my own set on my head, but please don’t pretend it’s a unique or innovative strategy.
Commented by Salome on September 10, 2009 at 1:01 AMI detect a confirmation bias warning;-)
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 10, 2009 at 1:04 AMNah, we’ve already covered marketing 101, I don’t see a need to delve into psyche class, too.
Commented by Salome on September 10, 2009 at 1:07 AMActually I’m quite serious. I do believe you need to widen your inputs and drop some filters. As do we all.
The most current objective studies of the SL Music “scene” I know of are TempleU Japan’s:
http://sl-music.info/
with a follow up article on
“The Music Industry — Real Music for a Virtual World” http://www.japaninc.com/mgz86/real-music-for-virtual-world
They are doing ongoing research in this area, and are quite focused on the business aspects of the emerging VW music industry.
With regards to aforementioned case studies on billboard marketing experiments, I’m sorry but no I’m not going to give you any more details. I’m not concerned in the slightest whether you believe me or not. Some of these are irrelevant now anyway due to being old in SL dogyears anyway. The most recent (a few months ago), in which I was not involved, was an interesting attempt to gather metrics (subject to my own confirmation bias, but the numbers did not add up imo)
I’m not big on drum beating after the fact Salome. I prefer to just do it.
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 10, 2009 at 1:26 AM“Actually I’m quite serious. I do believe you need to widen your inputs and drop some filters. As do we all.”
Noted and thanks for more links.
“I’m not big on drum beating after the fact Salome. I prefer to just do it.”
Good to hear it, neither am I, which is probably why I don’t bang anyone’s drums including my own. I’m also not big on jargon and blank statements taking the place of critical thinking and presenting a valid argument. If you didn’t have anything to prove in your opposition to my ideas, then you could have saved us about 20 posts of back and forth and just said something like “I believe this to be true, but I’m not going to present it to you in anyway that convinces the average reader because I’m content just to state that I’m in the know.”
Commented by Salome on September 10, 2009 at 1:32 AMYes, but where we be the fun if we didn’t yank each others mental chains?;-)
Lastly, this is much bigger than the insular catfight called the SL Music Scene.Community(sic).industry(kill that term)
A recent impromptu talk I gave at Tokyo barcamp has some of my thoughts on this (minus the first 3rd unfortunatley):
http://vimeo.com/4686606
Hasta la pasta, kt
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 10, 2009 at 1:41 AMdamn, wish this had an edit function…”where would be the fun”
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 10, 2009 at 1:43 AMInteresting thrust and parry guys.
Salome I must take issue with your early statement that 90% of performers on SL arn’t worth paying. Was that an intentional total exaggeration? or do you have some sort of facts behind that outrageous statement. What do you judge as being worth paying for?, and how to you judge this? YOU may not want to pay for it, but how can you possibly speak for the rest of the Music fan population. I’ve seen a lotta music in SL scouting for Talent for now 2 TV shows where we have showcased well over 100 performers, and I would say from my own judgements..mostly based around keeping in time, skill of playing instruments and ability to sing in Tune…your estimate is outrageously exaggerated. There are always borderline cases and I will err on the side of caution on those when choosing talent for my shows.
I would also point out that the same thing could apply to anything in SL including bloggers, builders, and any body that creates anything in SL. The market will decide who they follow who they like and who they will pay for. Any audience member, weather ill educated or skilled in spotting a dud performer, may not recognise why things seem a little “off” but they eventually will eschew the hype and make up there own mind…Yes I’ve tested this theory on several of my clueless musically friends and artists I’ve known to be tone deaf….They don’t know what is wrong but they don’t like it..Even total fakers who mime get found out eventually and die an unnatural death! The average audience member unlike your assessment is far more savy than you would assume.
Again I will reiterate, as I have now on many comments on Music in SL. Musicians are treated “differently” we are not given the same consideration as those with a “real” job. No one is holding up the skin manufacturing Industry in SL and saying…Oh hey guys isn’t it a little early to charge money for these things? I mean the skin doesn’t look real…ect….If people wanna pay for it then they will. If people wanna pay for Live music they will! so long as they know its there…They will no more pay for an out of tune muso than they will a crap skin.
The difference the BIG difference with most other products “sold” in SL is that most others except for X rated ones are supported by L.L and are embraced by many more residents in SL, because….they know about it! noobies are encouraged from day one to tailor their look for their own individuality. L.L does not support Live Music because of the Copyright legality issues they are facing. Look at showcase now on the new Web site not one Live Music venue or musician, the music featured on the new site is totally lame and not even clear to noobies looking at it what they are looking at? one musician playing a piano without….an ….audience!!!
I think that we cannot approach Live Music in SL as a viable way for Artists to get exposure or sales in any ONE way, it has to be approached from many sides. And Komuso is right its sooo early days for all of this. Whilst RL music is changing radically with the majority of Artists now making more money from performance than sales, and the average Musician only just getting pocket money from Mp3 sales. Its not surprising that SL performers are looking at that RL situation and applying it to SL where the exact same thing is happening! show me one Musician in SL that makes more money selling mp3′s than performance fees….it would be rare in deed. Value is placed now in live performances not CD’s or Mp3′s unless you are dead!
The problem is not that the venues are crap, that the majority of musicians are crap, the problem is that demand is exceeded by supply! there are so MANY great artists in SL now, and just not enough “groupies..” umm consumers to go round.
Live music is buried in the new Website and not openly promoted to all noobies. You find out about Live music usually by default.
When L.L finally signs a deal with ANSCAP things will totally change in a big way, and they will sign…its taking them 3 years to try and get a deal. And One change will be that venues or people broadcasting streams will have to pay their way to L.L to cover the huuuuge bill L.L are going to be hit with from ANSCAP. L.L will sign or they will close down music streams in SL. I know for a fact the negotiations are under way. Imagine…in RL a club pays a fee of 1.60 for every patron in their club…now estimate how many “patrons” L.L have to cover…and btw thats $1.60 per night! and L.L will not qualify for Community Radio status
So whatever anyone is thinking about Live music in SL you must count in the extra costs for everyone to stream music. And in general it is up to the venue owner or the owner of the land in both RL and SL to provide proof of paying your copyright fees.
Yes Salome I have seen your idea trialed before in venues. But the fact is, it is not the most effective way of advertising I like your idea of dressing up girls in great gear much more
In RL all media and venues are struggling also to stay open due to the enormous amount of other modes of entertainment and information outlets they have to deal with. Some guy travelling the world and doing a silly dance in front of different landmarks is the one getting the Cadbury contract…where the eyeballs are focused is really changing big time. Marketing to a crowd in SL is not as simple as placing a jpg in their way, it helps with branding, but its only a small part of the overall campaign to get eyeballs and hip pockets. In an interactive platform you need interactive eyeball grabbers! people need to interact with advertising.
It seems to me that even if MKT loses some of his audience, pisses people off, comes off like a twatt whatever. Its a good thing he is trying this, no matter what his motivation, because one day paying to see a performer…might not be an “option” but a necessity to cover the increase in music streaming fees that will have to be paid to L.L. Believe me the fees you will have to pay to L.L will not be cheep!
So imagine that time…please its coming ….there is no doubt. Think about all the recent radical things L.L has done where the community has not been consulted, why would anyone doubt that this is NOT coming.
Commented by Paisley Beebe on September 12, 2009 at 5:16 AMPaisley Beebe
Salome I must take issue with your early statement that 90% of performers on SL arn’t worth paying. Was that an intentional total exaggeration? or do you have some sort of facts behind that outrageous statement.
Obviously, it’s my own rough estimate of the performers in SL that I think the general public would pay to hear. It may seem like an exaggeration to you, but, frankly, my number was generous.
What do you judge as being worth paying for?, and how to you judge this? YOU may not want to pay for it, but how can you possibly speak for the rest of the Music fan population.
Yes. Shockingly, as this is my blog, the entries feature my opinions. When I have statistics I site them because I’m funny that way. But, having seen how the general SL population has responded anytime paying events happen, I’m fairly content with my numbers. The musicians I’d pay to hear in SL can be counted on one hand. They include people who actually develop their craft, do not mug, aren’t obviously toking off a pipe during performances, update their material, etc.
I would say from my own judgements..mostly based around keeping in time, skill of playing instruments and ability to sing in Tune…your estimate is outrageously exaggerated.
You and I have different standards.
I would also point out that the same thing could apply to anything in SL including bloggers, builders, and any body that creates anything in SL. The market will decide who they follow who they like and who they will pay for.
The market has decided. Over and over. How many performers and venues are currently charging? Exactly. It’s not a conspiracy against live music; it’s what the current market is willing to pay for. Nothing.
The average audience member unlike your assessment is far more savy than you would assume.
No. They’re not. This has been demonstrated to my satisfaction repeatedly, but we can agree to disagree here.
Musicians are treated “differently” we are not given the same consideration as those with a “real” job. No one is holding up the skin manufacturing Industry in SL and saying…Oh hey guys isn’t it a little early to charge money for these things? I mean the skin doesn’t look real…ect….If people wanna pay for it then they will. If people wanna pay for Live music they will! so long as they know its there…They will no more pay for an out of tune muso than they will a crap skin.
Actually, skin manufactures in SL are under enormous competition and have been skilling up their game for quite some time. What that has to do with live music is anyone’s guess. However, again, I’ll point out, the market has decided this issue. You obviously expect the market will shift. Barring some unforeseen changes to the SL population and the SL live music talent pool, I do not expect this will change. For a long time.
The difference the BIG difference with most other products “sold” in SL is that most others except for X rated ones are supported by L.L and are embraced by many more residents in SL, because….they know about it! noobies are encouraged from day one to tailor their look for their own individuality. L.L does not support Live Music because of the Copyright legality issues they are facing. Look at showcase now on the new Web site not one Live Music venue or musician, the music featured on the new site is totally lame and not even clear to noobies looking at it what they are looking at? one musician playing a piano without….an ….audience!!!
Using more exclamation points doesn’t make your point any more true. LL does not support other industries more than live music. Ask any content producer how they feel about their copyright protections right now and what they think LL is doing about it. Every aspect of SL thinks they get the worst shake from LL. It’s silly and there’s no evidence that their general indifference extends any further to live music than any other aspect of SL.
I think that we cannot approach Live Music in SL as a viable way for Artists to get exposure or sales in any ONE way, it has to be approached from many sides.
I don’t think anyone serious about this topic would disagree with this statement, nor has anyone I’m aware of alleged differently.
The problem is not that the venues are crap, that the majority of musicians are crap, the problem is that demand is exceeded by supply! there are so MANY great artists in SL now, and just not enough “groupies..” umm consumers to go round.
Again, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I don’t know a handful of venues that have thoughtful builds, good management, and/or maintain standards. I’ve already spoken to my feelings on the musician talent pool. My estimate of the venues worth keeping in SL is lower than that of musicians worth listening to.
Live music is buried in the new Website and not openly promoted to all noobies. You find out about Live music usually by default.
Live music was promoted on previous versions of the site heavily, and was frequently mentioned during log-in blurbs. Shopping gets more profile space on the current site because customizing their avatar and virtual living space (thus, customizing the way they interact with other residents) is the biggest aspect of the SL economy and what the the majority of SL users are interested in. If so many musicians in SL live music were worth hearing to the general population, live musicians would get bigger audiences than clubs playing canned music. They don’t.
When L.L finally signs a deal with ANSCAP things will totally change in a big way, and they will sign…its taking them 3 years to try and get a deal. And One change will be that venues or people broadcasting streams will have to pay their way to L.L to cover the huuuuge bill L.L are going to be hit with from ANSCAP. L.L will sign or they will close down music streams in SL. I know for a fact the negotiations are under way. Imagine…in RL a club pays a fee of 1.60 for every patron in their club…now estimate how many “patrons” L.L have to cover…and btw thats $1.60 per night! and L.L will not qualify for Community Radio status
As I cannot see the future, I will not venture a guess here. Having seen the lightning speed with which LL has responded to previous copyright issues, I’m not holding my breath. I think it’s going to be hard to police this — and LL hates to police anything. Streams can be used for any number of things and having LL go around to know which people need to pay fees and which don’t is the type of nightmare no one’s interested in. It would be a hard sell to shut down live streaming in general as there are many other legitimate uses for streams in SL other than live music.
Also, there’s a legal argument to be made as to whether the “venue” exists enough on paper to be charged a fee. In meatspace, the venue is the musician’s home studio, or the club they’re broadcasting from. One could simply claim the other is already paying.
Yes Salome I have seen your idea trialed before in venues.
Once again, I’ve seen it tried in individual venues, or a small cluster of venues and I’ve seen it executed poorly. Nothing on the scale I’m addressing, or done with any solid planning behind it. If you believe differently, feel free to provide an example.
Marketing to a crowd in SL is not as simple as placing a jpg in their way, it helps with branding, but its only a small part of the overall campaign to get eyeballs and hip pockets. In an interactive platform you need interactive eyeball grabbers! people need to interact with advertising.
Which is why the display I suggested would be interactive allowing people to get landmarks and information. However, people in SL do respond primarily to the things they see. Well done visual ads for products still get the most attention. Why else do you think content producers send images of the latest releases of their new products on notecards to their groups? SL may have sound, but I promise you, the visual aspect of the market is still where the market is focused.
It seems to me that even if MKT loses some of his audience, pisses people off, comes off like a twatt whatever. Its a good thing he is trying this, no matter what his motivation, because one day paying to see a performer…might not be an “option” but a necessity to cover the increase in music streaming fees that will have to be paid to L.L. Believe me the fees you will have to pay to L.L will not be cheep!
I honestly, don’t mind anything MKT does. I have no problem with his attempts. They don’t offend me. They don’t upset me. Good luck to him. Whatever my personal feelings are regarding MKT and his music, he’s entitled to do whatever he wants with his own space. My issue addresses those people in the SL live music community who do very little and do it badly, and still have the ego to expect to be treated as though they’re professionals.
As for venues paying fees to LL, again, I’ll believe it when I see it.
Thank you for your input. All views are certainly welcome.
Commented by Salome on September 12, 2009 at 10:45 AMThe Patootie Haired One writes: There are two things I know in SL: music and shopping. I tell you the crossover is there to be applied. Women go to concerts. Women look at what other women wear. If I were a clothing/hair/skin designer,wanting to get my brand out there, I would be hiring a few cute avatars to go to concerts and model my stuff.
……..but a great target audience for advertisers. Why? Because women shop. We all do. Even the boys pretending to be girls shop.
There is one thing I know in SL: Shopping. And I agree, wholeheartedly. The women (basically meaning) female avatars) are the core consumers of SL. I am constantly checking out everyone elses outfits, and profile picks wherever I go, and that would include music venues. Though I really don’t have a lot of SL time and haven’t been to a music venue in a while.
I’m wondering if a 50′s TV kind of sponsorship would work. Something like:
Patootie Haired Announcer and Venue owner: “It’s the Simone Star Show Revue, Featuring Lyndon Heart. also featuring the Lennon Sisters. This weeks special guest, Gracie! And now, here is the Start of the Simone Star Show Review…..Lyndon Heart.
Lyndon: Ah thank you, ah thank you. (plays guitar, the girls swoon)
Lyndon: And now a word from our Sponsor, Simone!
Patootie Haired Announcer: Simone is enomis spelled backwards, which is totally meaningless, but you can find great fashion at great prices at Simone! Whether you need just the right formal for that night of dancing or the perfect bridal gown for your special day, Simone! has you covered. And now back to Lyndon.
I shop, therefore I am, especially in SL.
Commented by CronoCloud Creeggan on September 12, 2009 at 2:04 PMSorry to Tell you this Salome but there are so many assumptions you have made in your reply based on subjective opinions and not based on fact. You can write what ever you like on your blog, but if you state things as fact…”less than 90% of artists are not worth paying” you must be prepared to be taken to task, this is a public blog not a private one. Your opinion is just that your opinion. Lets just leave it at that. You are obviously unmovable in your “opinions” so any debate is pointless.
Commented by Paisley Beebe on September 12, 2009 at 8:36 PMCome on paisley, you can’t duck out after just one round with Salome “I know what I like and I like what I knows” Strangelove!
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 12, 2009 at 9:47 PMWhere’s teh fun in that. Thrust! Parry! thrust! Parry!…
Paisley, I agree my subjective opinions and standards are my own. However, as the market has refused, repeatedly to pay for performers in SL, I don’t feel mine is the minority opinion. The people who lack talent rarely know it, but that doesn’t mean those of us who do recognize the reality of the current performer pool are obligated to silence on the matter. I have no problem with those who perform in SL to use it as a format to skill up their creativity, or engage it as a place to noodle with friends. I don’t rule out the RHPS syndrome, or any other social phenomenon that takes place in corners of the live music community. I don’t even blame people for entertaining their own vanity — as far as I’m concerned, everyone has a right to do as they wish in their own space. As such, I haven’t named names or called anyone’s specific talent into question. If this were a review of a performance I wouldn’t shy away from doing that, but this is is about the general state of SL live music — and, specifically what venues should be able to charge for the fare they offer. I appreciate there are different contexts and different levels. Any professional performer who knows their craft shouldn’t take issue with what I’ve posted. To that end, a venue owner who presents a good space, attempts to follow a plan, and demonstrates a dedication to promotion and marketing, shouldn’t take issue with what I’ve said. Those individuals should simply know themselves to be in the upper tier of what’s out there for aural and visual consumption.
As I stated before, what I do take issue with is unprofessional people demanding professional treatment or payment. It’s my opinion that less than 10% of SL live music performers are worth listening to, let alone paying for and an even smaller percentage of venues are worth supporting. Of those, not all meet my personal preferences of style, even though I recognize their talent or worth. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make by “taking me to task” for a generalized statement. Did you feel I was attempting to deceive readers into believing I had secret statistics to back up my vague numbers, or did you feel people with opposing opinions would abandon their own in favor of my use of a percentage symbol?
Komuso, you are not the only one who has been there since the beginning of SL music, not that longevity in the format gives any particular weight into the majority of this issue. You’re also not the only one familiar with emerging technologies or the constantly changing market of virtual living. Yes, I do know what I like and, as anyone that reads me regularly will tell you, I have no problem explaining my personal preferences in plain terms. What I personally enjoy, however, is far from all I know. Rational thinking is not limited to preference. I make allowances for all sorts of purposes for that which I don’t enjoy and I do not impose my likes upon others. Outside of my own blog or property I generally do not engage in public discourse, but for a random comment here and there. My general rule of thumb is that when I find behavior I dislike, I’m free to opt-out, so I do.
However, when I encounter music or art or clothing or any other content I don’t care for, I can still evaluate it on an objective level. I can support my belief with statistics and examples when available, or common sense and logic when all else fails. What I don’t do is lower my standards or pretend things are different than they are for the sake of those who would take an ego-drenched mile, given an inch of fluffy encouragement. If, as you joke, I only knew what I liked, trust me when I tell you, I’d enjoy SL much more. I’d rather know only what I liked, but I can’t feign ignorance or unawareness; it’s not my way. That others may choose to compromise their honesty for marketing, social politics, or simple preference, I don’t begrudge them. That others are simply unable to evaluate things objectively I don’t blame. Anyone that reads my writing, however, expects fairness and honest opinion with a crispy little taco of wit hidden here and there. I gave up playing the “please make everyone like me” game in school along with the dumb-blonde routine to lower expectations upon myself. Adults should be able to handle am opposing point of view, even if they dislike the individual presenting it, and those expecting to be treated like professionals should be able to handle blunt opinion from people like me who evaluate the market from what is largely an educated consumer point of view.
So, yes, mine is a public blog, and I’ve never had any issue with people who disagree with me, outside of a handful who use controversy to push their own mindless agenda. Both of you have your own forums and should I ever feel the need to venture an opinion on anything either of you have to say outside of this discussion, I may well return the favor on your home fields. That said, you came here to my forum to debate something I posted. You’re welcome, naturally, but simply negating my opinion to put forth your own and then fall back on “it’s not worth debating” or “I have nothing to prove” seems a bit pointless.
If that’s what you like to do with your spare time, however, by all means, continue if you wish and I’ll address it as time allows.
Commented by Salome on September 13, 2009 at 12:17 AMall joking aside..
Ideas are cheap, literally. It’s always the implementation that determines success.
If you feel so strongly about the potential success of your concept you should gather a team of like minded people and prototype it and get some metrics. It won’t happen any other way.
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 13, 2009 at 1:19 AMThis is where reading comprehension comes into play. From my initial post:
“There just aren’t enough people in the SL live music community I care to help to take on a project of this nature, but if there’s anyone out there that thinks they can make it sail, here’s my two cents on how to do it.”
If I felt passionately about the project, I wouldn’t be handing the idea out for free — I’d be gathering the people to do it. Quite frankly, you seem far more invested in shooting it down than I have in supporting it. But, when people legitimately address my ideas in my forum, I try to address them back. My brainstorming was intended as an example of what venue owners could be doing instead of blaming performers.
You and I fundamentally disagree on whether traditional forms of advertising have been implemented in a professional enough manner by the live music community to rule them out entirely. Other than that, I don’t think we’re on different pages of this debate.
Commented by Salome on September 13, 2009 at 2:06 AMNot that anyone is still reading at the end of all this, but for those who might still be hanging on…
…a friend let me know that someone posed the question in another forum I’m not privy to regarding advertising at venues. Which basically amounted to “if the music is so bad, why would people advertise there?” The question was not asked here and is being given to me second-hand, so there may be context I’m missing.
The answer is very simple. As I mentioned, most audience members don’t know the difference between bad music and good music. Most of the horrible people who try out for shows like American Idol actually believe they’re good. They have friends, family members and supporters in many cases who think they’re good too. And while people dislike Simon, they also respect that he is honest. He’s an ass, but he’s honest. And, in many cases, it’s the first time any of those people have had an honest word handed to them.
The reason I believe advertising will work is because SL is social. People will hang out and offer up tips to have a good time. They will also see what’s around them. Bad musicians can still have loyal followings and many in SL do. Every god-awful guy I’ve ever heard in SL has at least a handful of girls sitting as close to the stage as possible so they can “Woo Hoo” every song. The quality of the performance has little to do with whether people will show up, but it does make a big difference on what people will pay for. When you ask someone to pay for something there is an expectation of quality of experience. If you get something for free, you do not hold it to the same standard you do when asked to pay. Hanging out with friends listening to mediocre music is okay with many. Paying for it, not so much. Advertising works on a level that removes the issue of quality. The worst shows on television, still run ads. People do not generally associate the advertising with the quality of a performance.
Commented by Salome on September 14, 2009 at 2:32 AMhttp://someknowledge.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/television-is-brainwashing/
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 14, 2009 at 2:44 AMand lucrative. Very lucrative!
Commented by Komuso Tokugawa on September 14, 2009 at 2:51 AMYes. Like music, the average consumer doesn’t really distinguish between good television and bad television. Which is why Pushing Daisies is canceled and Medium wasn’t. Advertising is a tool — as good or bad as the person that wields its use; it can be used creatively to educate, or deceptively to manipulate and any other number of purposes. How we use the tools we have to work with is the crux of the issue.
No matter how much hope you hold for the future, or how much you want to worship the idea that technology will make the brass ring easier to grab, the truth is that even when we get to the place where whuffie replaces dollars, there will still be a majority of people who lack the ability to distinguish quality.
Commented by Salome on September 14, 2009 at 4:00 AMI posted this on another forum, and then found this one, and ive never heard of Salome, and I am a musician that does not toke my pipe, and i try to keep it fresh and ever changing, to the point of having several genres and styles under my belt. all this brain power here, is it possible to get something done? I am willing to try, as I have said before.
” First off, I will say thank you for recognizing me, as a selfishly motivated person.
Why is Anek Fuchs playing live music in SL for money, and not for free?
Anek Fuchs is a 38 year old male with a BAD case of diabetes, he can hardly leave his house, and the money he makes, pays for him to live and breathe.
Why does Anek not go and get a job?
Anek spent most of his life, playing guitar, had many jobs, and many cool experiences, but it all adds up to squat when you have to stick needles in your arms, and cannot pay for medication, nor can you EVER get life insurance, or benefits of any kind, now that such a thing is on public record.
Does anyone here know how many folks in SL are handicapped? or shut ins, sure there is the bored housewife, or the people losing the house and loads of time on the hands, or even people going there from work, but go ahead ask yourselves this . . . a virtual reality community where HARDLY anyone is between the ages of 18-35 should tell you something.
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2008-09/2008-09-17-voa24.cfm?CFID=312124104&CFTOKEN=86009848&jsessionid=de307af243736d1b8bfb3d3848262937e7a4
see that article.
I was in on the initial beginnings of the concept MK was aiming for, and as I always said, all along, I support it as long as it works, I know it CAN work, but I also know that so far, it cant be something to take over completely, getting all us musicians to agree, just ISNT oging to happen, unless we agree to disagree.
Mankind has taken a lot of crap, and a lot less money to see it working, and the other model provided by Votslav, worked very well, and might even be possible for a weekly event IF the rotation was good, and it included top tier musicians, oh did I say that? there is the next problem, some musicians, will HATE the idea, because they are not among the upper echelon, and don’t say it doesnt exist, lol it is running strong.
I fought long and hard to break the “you are new so you must pay your dues” bullcrap, and have helped others too, you know why? because WE HAVE. Now along the way I have found several disturbing secrets:
“well Anek, why dont you SAY you are getting paid when you are not, and everyone looks good”
“oh no Anek, I won’t pay you 5k an hour because you are doing this tip show over there, why should I pay you, when I could see you for free?”
“you don’t have the following that so and so has, so no you aren’t worth that” – yet so and so makes 8,10,15,20-25 k.
I have NEVER charged more than 5-6k for an hour of my time, and I have purposely made that a firm rule, and also I have NEVER been deceptive to venues, I have told them, it doesnt matter if anyone brings you a crowd, they leave when the artist does, and I have personally stood around MANY shows long after its over, talking about this very thing.
Segregation of talent levels has also been talked about, and QUICKLY hushed in every corner, but lets face the facts here . . .
now here is the part where normally I would work hard to discredit Karaoke singers as opposed to live musicians, and someone would inevitably say, the voice is an instrument too, there i said it for you, and fine, it is, but how many artists could sing their way out of the bedroom or den they sit in.
We have all heard the artist that leaves us begging for the one to follow, or that left us wishing the previous one was still on.
I see a lot being said here, and I wanted to post thoughts, if it offends, well sorry at least I am honest, and nobody can argue that.
Another thing to realise, the sooner the better is the more organized we are, the more the lindens would notice, but they arent going to get involved with such a disturbed environment.
When I started having meetings, I had a much better result in mind, and I was warned heavily against doing it, but in some ways, I was glad I did, it shed a lot of light on things, and also brought me further into the scandalous world of SL music.
I know too much, and while Iwould hope for MK’s or Votslav’s idea to work, there are just too many wild forces against it, or any real progress, so I will stay in my position on the lineup, which btw I did not choose, but was held in, (like it was a segregation idea hmmmm?) and everyone can pretend that there are no equal musicians, or no defined order, which in turn, leaves only Chaos.
Anek Fuchs (fooks thx)”
Commented by Anek Fuchs on October 18, 2009 at 2:38 PMOk, I have speed read most of the postings and if I’ve missed something, well apologies. I promote music in RL & in SL, and you can draw parallels with both. 90% of artists are not very good? why are we surprised with that suggested figure? I would say 90% of RL music isn’t ‘ very good ‘.Record deals against un signed artists stats would suggest that. As for cover charges, in my mind its quite simple. If an artist is good enough to command a fee for an SL gig, people will pay. If he/she has built up a fan base, has something worth watching, then people will pay. But the beauty of music is what is one persons poison is another’s remedy and as music venue owners you have to keep an open mind when promoting music, rather than think too much with your own ears.
Commented by Love Repine on October 22, 2009 at 6:15 AMI have to agree with salome on this one. The vast majority of the live performance acts on sl are mediocre at best. When I do attend a show I tend to tip simply as good etiquette; however if I had to actually pay just to get into one of these shows, my attendance would drop off considerably. I can think of only 2 acts right now who I would consider worth paying for and I have been to countless sl shows and have probably seen hundreds of artists.
The whole feud between the “track artists” and “musicians” is silly. I too believe that the voice is an instrument and to be perfectly honest I’d much rather listen to a track artist with a great voice than a great musician who sings like crap. The lack of musical variety in SL is also a major turnoff. Not everyone is a fan of acoustic guitar and rock and that seems to be what the majority of acts play. Not that there is anything wrong with these musical genres, but as I wouldn’t pay to hear this type of music in RL, I certainly wouldn’t pay to hear a bad cover in SL.
The vast majority of the venues seem to be thinly disguised stores or zyngo gambling parlors. There is usually some “host” continuously spamming the local chat begging for venue tips and that all gets to be a bit much, especially when you’re there to just chat and hang out with friends.
At this point in time, I can’t see any sort of “charging” to be a viable option. There would have to be a major overhaul in the variety and quality of the artists as well as the technical issues involved. It’s a rare treat when there are no stream issues. It might also help if venue owners would be more selective of their acts. The bad musicians stay only because people allow them.
Commented by neria zeurra on November 11, 2009 at 7:55 AM